A quarterback and a rock star walk into a football stadium and talk about therapy. Start of an eye-rolling joke? No, it actually happened. And it was recorded.

GQ magazine assembles “conversations” between celebrities who are paired based on some commonality. The November 2019 pairing featured Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers quarterback and Justin Vernon, Eau Claire, Wisconsin, native son and founder of the band Bon Iver. Here’s what they said about doing therapy to become more focused and perform at a higher level:

Vernon, talking about getting into the “zone” for performance: If your mind is wild, if your mind’s loud…it takes a long time…you have to start out well and I think I wasn’t well for a number of years adjusting to my minor version of being somewhat well-known, or semi-famous, and all the attention…I had to (do) therapy just to clear out all the junk. I just had to re-center everything.

Rodgers: The therapy thing is interesting because, I know, growing up that word had a real negative connotation.

Vernon: Oh, (sarcasm) you’re nuts if you go to therapy.

Rodgers: Yeah, (sarcasm) you’ve got a lot of problems if you go to therapy. (As opposed to) now, I think it’s where it should be as far as the collective thought. It’s an important part of growing. Asking for help is actually a strength.

Vernon: We’re right in that spot right now. Not only is it okay, but it’s part of how you get better, part of having a healthy mind. I don’t know a single person that hasn’t struggled. It’s an exciting time…in western culture we’re opening up to things like that and I think…

Rodgers: It’s important.

Vernon: Very important.

Rodgers: It used to be only golfers…because (air quotes) golfers have mental problems…they get in their own head easily. But now it’s normal. We have one on staff, a sports psychologist who is a therapist. They’re helping you with ideas to get you max performance, but they’re also there to listen. And to have that outlet when there’s not a lot of privacy…there is confidentiality. And when you have confidentiality you can have that openness, that vulnerability. That’s how you grow as a person.

Vernon also observes the difference between the cultures of Wisconsin and California, which I found riveting since I’ve recently moved to Madison from Oakland, California. He says people in Wisconsin focus on connection instead of achievement. To an extent I would agree, though I found that in California people felt more comfortable saying they were in therapy as part of everyday conversation. It is seen as a regular part of one’s personal growth path that includes improving connections with other people.